Let’s look at some more Mono Misinformation, so the Gentle Reader can gain a sense of what one faces when braving the Wilds of Ignorance.
Oh Twitter User, It’s So Cute When You Try
So, as I parsed my enormous referrer logs, populated only with visits by Distinguished Guests of the Highest Caliber, I noticed some incoming Twitter traffic. Imagine my shock when I found someone defending Mono on Twitter! Then imagine my utter disbelief when I found that same someone – brace yourself – had their facts wrong! Why I nearly succumbed to the Vapors that Very Moment!
A shock I know, but steel yourself, Gentle Reader, as we journey forth again…(and to seven hells with Twitter for not having an easy-to-use threaded conversation view. I’ve often said this is because no one is interested in having a real conversation or discussion there. Twitter: Proof that a terrible UI is no bar to massive success.)
plaimbock: #ubuntu 11.04 switches to #banshee http://is.gd/i7avD but what about the #MCP/patent issues? pixie dust made them vanish? http://is.gd/i7aUx
trampstr: @plaimbock Their are no patient issues, Banshee is covered a legally binding “community promise” not to sue
trampstr: @plaimbock maybe you missed it but the work to cut back the size of the banshee install for 11.04 removed all non EMCA components. Its safe.
trampstr: @plaimbock http://bit.ly/e81pnr <- commit that removed all non emca components.
Of course, those who are paying attention in class already know the problem, but I’ll point it out here for anyone just joining us:
- Banshee is not covered, in any sense.
- All of the non-ECMA components were not removed.
- That commit doesn’t remove all the non-ECMA components.
3 tweets, every one of which is totally, 100% wrong presented as casually as you like without disclaimer, explainer or retainer.
Let me also note there is also an important distinction to be made between “Banshee is covered” and “Mono is covered”. If applications were directly being covered, then we wouldn’t care if Mono or Logo or Any Other Language were being used. But the Community Promise is applied to the C#/CLI implementation, which means it is Mono that the application developer is relying on to be safe within the confines of the Microsoft Community Promise.
In effect, the Mono project and its promoters are making a promise to application developers and users: “Use Mono to develop your applications, it’s useful and safe. Microsoft has made a promise.” The implication is that developers and users need not be concerned with verifying they are remaining withing the boundaries of Microsoft’s promise. But, this sort of Mono Apologist violates that trust by not only implementing things they know are not covered by the promise, but also by obfuscating which bits are “safe” and “unsafe” and then lying about it.
That’s a whole different thing than being honest and saying something like “Mono may be risky, but we think it’s useful and not too risky.” Nothing wrong with this premise, because I believe rational people can evaluate the level of acceptable risk differently. (Team Apologista has a problem here in how they argue it, but the premise is a decent enough starting point.)
So, the original questioner has been misled. Perhaps not maliciously – but misled nonetheless. Of course, there’s more:
plaimbock: @trampstr: what about this report that #banshee, tomboy, f-spot and #mono use non-ECMA namespaces? http://is.gd/iEe7Z
trampstr: @plaimbock thats old info, also it lists System.Xml as non EMCA but it is in ECMA335.
Um, no – it is not “old info”. Unless you consider the last 2 days “old”. The source code repository is ~2 days old, and the ECMA standard is the released-this-month 5th Edition. Any more up-to-date and it would be realtime. Furthermore, while parts of System.Xml are now in the standard, the commonly used methods by the Mono apps do not appear to be - as I explitictly mentioned in the “Cautionary note” in my post. The System.Xml thing is legit.
How do you combat this? One tries to be careful in researching and fact-checking – no-one is forthcoming with easy, available or comprehensive references in this area, after all – and yet any random jackass on Twitter will authoritatively deny something even when looking right at it! Is this person a liar? Incompetent? Lazy? Just repeating shit he read on some Mono Cabal Talking Points Memo? All or none of the above?
And of course, the final delight, an amazingly un-self-aware twit tweet :
trampstr: @plaimbock there are very strong opinions on both sides. and lots of miss information going around (from both sides).
FUUUUUUUUUU! YOU! YOU! You are the one spreading misinformation! Gah!
Aaaanywaaay
The good news is: now that it is clearly documented that:
- All of the most popular Mono applications in Linux use non-ECMA .NET namespaces extensively
- Mono is not split into ECMA/non-ECMA packages in Debian/Ubuntu, and probably not in any other distro either
I am supremely confident that we will never again hear another argument from a Mono Apologist suggesting otherwise. I also fully expect those very vocal Mono Apologists who manage to appear in every thread to defend Mono and may have stated or implied different, to go back and correct themselves so they don’t continue to mislead others. After all, I know factual accuracy is of the highest concern.
I am also expecting Swedish Triplets and a Lamborghini Spyder Performante for Xmas.
Which do think is more likely?

#1 by lamapper on December 14, 2010 - 1:29 pm
Thank you for posting this information…too many people are falling into yet another trap, this one is called MONO.
Its happened before, it will happen again, its good to have the facts yet you and I both know the apologists will try to deny the truth of the truth.
Its best to just say No to Mono, anything .NET and by extension anything built using them…I do believe Wayland and Unity qualify as they too are based on .NET and Mono.
I look forward to seeing what Unity has to offer, however I will not rely on any distro that uses it, ever again as my primary distro, just can not afford the future risk.
#2 by Jason on December 14, 2010 - 1:40 pm
lamapper,
Thank you for taking the time to comment!
I don’t think Unity or Wayland have anything to do with Mono or .NET.
Wayland is LGPL, written in C, and the lead developer is at Intel (Red Hat previously).
Unity (the Ubuntu one) is written in C and Vala and comes from Canonical.
There is a “Unity” game engine that I believe uses some tweaked version of Mono, but that has nothing to do with the Ubuntu Unity.
Unless I’ve really missed something, I don’t think there are any objections to be raised to either Wayland or Unity based on .NET or Mono.
#3 by lamapper on March 2, 2011 - 8:17 am
Perhaps it was the Unity game engine that I saw had Mono and mistakenly associated it with Unity Linux and therefore Wayland. Thanks for pointing this out to me. Guess I will have to search for non-ECMA .NET namespaces in the future.
#4 by Blair on December 23, 2010 - 12:52 pm
Dude,
I hate to say this but I trust Microsoft a lot more Than Oracle anyday (Java anyone). I was a Oracle DBA back in the day and Larry is only out for $$$ a lot more than MS ever was. just my 2 cents.
#5 by Dan Serban on December 23, 2010 - 5:26 pm
Blair,
Before you compare Mono vs. Java and the two corporate giants, please note:
- Mono is a component of stock Gnome.
- Mono is preinstalled in Ubuntu and an ever-growing number of applications depend on it (Banshee is only the latest example of things getting worse).
- Neither Java nor OpenJDK are contained in stock Gnome or Ubuntu.
Microsoft has a clear track record of “getting people sort of addicted and then figuring out how to monetize that addiction over the course of the next decade” (citing from memory here).
Court documents reveal it.
Personally, it is this bait-and-switch pattern of Mono that I find disgusting and objectionable, more than any technicality around patents.
Also, unlike Microsoft, Oracle has never suggested that Linux on the {desktop,server,mobile device} infringes their patents.
The lawsuit they have against Google is over DalvikVM (the userland layer of Android) not Linux-the-kernel nor GNU-the-toolchain.
The right thing to do for Ubuntu would be to continue packaging Mono for those who need to run legacy code, but remove it from their installation media.
I personally believe criticism of Mono would largely wind down were that to happen.
And the right thing to do for Gnome would be to replace Tomboy with Gnote and get rid of the Mono runtime.
#6 by Blair on December 23, 2010 - 1:01 pm
Also are you a lawyer? If not stop spreading legal FUD about a ECMA/ISO standard that anyone can implement with out patent infringment issues. Dude go learn the law.
#7 by Jason on December 23, 2010 - 1:31 pm
Blair,
Who said anything about Oracle being more or less trustworthy than Microsoft? This is another favorite tactic of Mono Defenders: they point to a larger or similar “evil” and then suggest that if the critic doesn’t attack that target, it somehow invalidates the original criticism.
Of course, this is absurd in the extreme: not only is it impossible for someone to take on all injustices, but I have never made the argument that only Mono has problems. Truly a worthless argument.
Furthermore, one need not be a lawyer to speak on issues that matter. Your argument, by extension, would exclude nearly all opinion on Mono (as well as almost all other software issues), because lawyers almost never give out legal advice to those who aren’t their clients. In addition, the most compelling arguments (such as they are) in defense of Mono do not come from lawyers either – yet it seems you put some stock in them. Again, an absurd and worthless argument.
Finally, I am not arguing that no one can implement an ECMA/ISO standard without patent infringment issues. The entire point is that non-ECMA portions are being used, which is an entirely different kettle of fish. In the best case, these bits may fall under a license such as Apache or MsPL, in the worst case they are absolutely unprotected and can only be safe if patents are invalidated.
Now, I could go on to argue that if such bits were clearly marked and seperated by the Mono project, or if Mono Apologists would acknowledge that the patent coverage issue is not as clear-cut as “the MCP covers Mono”, then there would be a lot less to say on the patent front and we could discuss the aspects of Mono that bother me more – however, since it is exceedingly rare for a Mono Apologist to even acknowledge basic facts, I figure why bother with the larger points?
#8 by ML2MST on December 29, 2010 - 5:18 pm
Thank you for the interesting article Jason and everyone who responded for the even more interesting discussion. Fortunately there is a work around for Ubuntu and it’s the first thing I do, if a new release of Ubuntu GNU/Linux goes gold:
http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2010/10/10/how-to-remove-mono-from-ubuntu-10-10-maverick-meercat/
http://tinyurl.com/3ydrt7v
Please read the article’s comments for further options.
#9 by Ciprian Mustiata on January 2, 2011 - 4:30 pm
The FUD of patents is too big to do really harm.
Honest questions: before you state things, do you contribute even 1 liner patches to projects that you really use? There may make a difference compare with language/platform of choice.
If you will do your searches over the internet, I’m the same person that proposed on UbuntuBrainstorm some other ideas. One of them is that if you are connected at internet, when you do your installer steps, geolocation, to propose as default the found location on the same scale as I also proposed to put Banshee as default (and removal as default of Rhytmbox).
The question: “Do you still beat your wife?” starts with a premise that you did at least in your past beat your wife, right!? The question about Banshee patents may be legitimate, but will not make it equal with patents breaking, is a misguided question at best.
In the premise that an entity (any!) may break patents is not a project killer.
Here is a known project in Microsoft world. There are problems also in Apple world.
I’m not here even to restate that Mono may or not be ECMA backed implementation, but I’m here to encourage people to identify a patent, go to the project mailing list, or to email personally to a developer and to give him/her a polite notice about breakup. This developer will have time to rewrite it’s piece of code.
If you think that Banshee, or any OSS project is at danger, please take your time and find patents where apply and make them out of the project by at least identify those issues. Use Google Patents and give patent IDs and links.
To be fair, your CPU is patented, in a lot of ways, and I’ve never sow Linux users to use “OpenVGA” or a more “open” CPU or graphics because they are anti-patents.
Think that not only Mono may have danger of patents, but also Python, GCC, Linux kernel, Firefox, OpenOffice. Why? Because they are huge pieces of code. And what if a patent troll will attack those projects? Will project die instantly? Most likely: Open Invention Network (which Mono is also covering) will attack with an anti-patent war or other solution will be set.
For the record let’s take the worst case scenario: Microsoft (or anyone else, like Apple will attack for example the layout that resemble too much with iTunes) will do a notice that project have to be closed because it’s runtime breaks too many patents. What will mean for users? “sudo apt-get install ” What will mean for developers? At that very time they can overcome the patent problem with using another VM. Probably a ported Android VM, or an OpenJDK like runtime will make a rewrite of Banshee. Or a rewrite in Vala. It will take 1 year and people may reuse it.
Anyway, even will happen as life works, a patent will be used against Mono about a technology here or there, for example in JIT, where Mono may use another backend (–llvm) or a specific library is patented as API usage and implementation that will be removed. What will mean to Banshee? Just rewrite the area of code of infriging libraries.
My project did a 80% rewrite a Windows Forms (yeah, I’m a .Net dev) to Windows Presentation Foundation in a bit more than one month. A two person work! I don’t think that a change of Banshee will be that dramatic, but even it will be, developers are smart people and they don’t whine, but will do something at the end.
Happy new year 2011!
#10 by Jacob on October 15, 2011 - 1:11 am
“I am also expecting Swedish Triplets and a Lamborghini Spyder Performante for Xmas.”
That’s funny you should say that, so am I